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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:24 pm 
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Location: Sparkill, NY
Chris

What about running these springs on a camaro then? They where a mono leaf car in the first generation no?? The way I read the rule was basically don't show up with a fiberglass leafspring that does not look stock. If no one said anything about Lanes springs none would be the wiser. Look Stock Go Fast??

Not stirring the pot I just think that rule should be looked at closer. If it looks stock what's the matter?? :2c

And no I don't have them on my car YET??


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:24 pm 
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I should know this but i think the only mono leaf only came on a 6 cylinder camaro same for the nova.
Ken


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:16 pm 
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Ken

You may be correct but I thought a 67-68 Z was avalible with a mono leaf?

The real point I was trying to put across is if it looks correct Which they did what's the diffrence??

It's not a real big deal but to me these are the area's someone can be cleaver with out spending a ton of money. Which is my new motto


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:41 pm 
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67 camaro had monos
all 68 69s with 12 bolt had multi( think big block car here)
i looked at that spring rule for 3 years. I would have composite springs made to look like multis if it wasnt spelled out that it wouldnt be allowed.

13.06 Shocks and springs must appear correct.
Aftermarket adjustable shocks are OK if painted to appear correct. Leaf springs must be made of the same material and be of the same construction as stock.

i dont know anything about fords except they didnt come with composite springs in 71. if in fact that is what was found


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:41 am 
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Ed Cook wrote:
It's not a real big deal but to me these are the area's someone can be cleaver with out spending a ton of money. Which is my new motto


Ed I agree, this type of racing revolves around people being clever.

The rule was pretty much a direct carry over since racers were used to it. Our decision was based only on how the rule was written. Replacing a spring pack made of steel leaves with a single steel monoleafs and strips of rubber/plastic to look like additional leaves would make it a light weight pack in our eyes. To me its like putting a steel skin on a fiberglass door shell.

Over the winter the same rule underwent a tweak to simply eliminate the grey areas. It is now pretty cut & dry.

"13.06 Shocks and springs must appear correct.
Aftermarket adjustable shocks are OK if painted to appear correct. Leaf springs must be made of the same material and be of the same construction as stock."

Now the rule itself & its intent. I understand what you are saying.... With some of the other rule changes Supercars has made (specifically the block and head concessions) we do seem to be making a Stock Appearance the most critical item. Should it be revisited? Thats another story.


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:43 am 
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Not picking on the camaro just using it as an refrence. The calvert spring is steal not composite. End of discussion for me!


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:54 am 
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"Leaf springs must be made of the same material and be of the same construction as stock."

Cars that came with a monoleaf can run a monoleaf. Cars that came with spring packs can only run steel spring packs.

I suppose you could get a "pack" that has a similar rate to a monoleaf but other than deleting a leaf or two, you can't really get the same weight savings.


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:55 am 
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Location: Bristol CT
Great conversation guys. We pride ourselves on taking issues like this on with no bias. Ed thanks for making your case, most importantly thank you for the feedback, this rule is nothing new. It has been in place since the first Factory Appearing race. We take certification of our racers cars very seriously. We made a choice when we started this series that every racer will follow one set of rules, No one would be given an advantage that was not spelled out for all to see. We don't send selected racers letters and tell them they can use a part that is not available to all.

We've designed our certification, to not extinguish the great engineering we are so use to seeing in this series. We allow our racers to create and champion ideas they may have, without loosing site of the original intent of Factory Appearing MuscleCar Racing. Our certification uses a points system that allows you to make decision on your build that may give you a slight advantage but keeps you grounded to the original intent. Take a look at Lanes tech form. Our Tech allowed Lane to make choices on his Mustang that he felt benefited him. But also grounded Lane to make wise decisions as to what deviations from the rules would still allow his Mustang to be certified.


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:55 am 
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2009 Tech Form, Lane Carey.


Attachments:
Lane.jpg
Lane.jpg [ 210.08 KiB | Viewed 3151 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:52 am 
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So a completely stock appearing rear leaf spring pack is illegal, but an heim jointed front strut rod is okay as long as it is painted gray? :nuts

Sorry, we had this discussion down at ed's. I didn't even think the springs would be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:01 pm 
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F1scamp wrote:
I didn't even think the springs would be an issue.


Me too. The rule seemed pretty clear way back when the Stock Appearing Pioneers wrote it. "Composite or other lightweight material leaf springs are not allowed." When I first saw a "fabricated" leaf spring pack at a race I was suprised it wasn't flagged as illegal especially since it wasn't that stock appearing. Perhaps I am being too literal but a leaf spring pack composed of steel and a different material leaf is a composite spring pack. This can be argued since people are probably assuming composite=fiberglass etc. But there is no denying that once you start swapping steel leaves for a lighter weight material, you have now made a lightweight spring.

If I remember correctly, on the car in question, the vacuum pump hose in question ran from the back of the valve cover straight thru the firewall. Yes, it was done well and you did have to "inspect" the engine bay to see it but that is part of the process.

The vacuum pump noise is a new thing and should probably be looked into. Keep in mind that there was never a "car must sound stock" rule. Just the exhaust note was required to be stock sounding, the valvetrain could clatter away and not be an issue. Vacuum pump noise is new to the scene.


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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:11 pm 
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CJK440 wrote:
F1scamp wrote:
I didn't even think the springs would be an issue.


Me too. The rule seemed pretty clear way back when the Stock Appearing Pioneers wrote it. "Composite or other lightweight material leaf springs are not allowed." When I first saw a "fabricated" leaf spring pack at a race I was suprised it wasn't flagged as illegal especially since it wasn't that stock appearing. Perhaps I am being too literal but a leaf spring pack composed of steel and a different material leaf is a composite spring pack. This can be argued since people are probably assuming composite=fiberglass etc. But there is no denying that once you start swapping steel leaves for a lighter weight material, you have now made a lightweight spring.

If I remember correctly, on the car in question, the vacuum pump hose in question ran from the back of the valve cover straight thru the firewall. Yes, it was done well and you did have to "inspect" the engine bay to see it but that is part of the process.

The vacuum pump noise is a new thing and should probably be looked into. Keep in mind that there was never a "car must sound stock" rule. Just the exhaust note was required to be stock sounding, the valvetrain could clatter away and not be an issue. Vacuum pump noise is new to the scene.



It's always interesting to see different point of view. So when you are inspecting an engine compartment, how much time is spent? Is there a time limit? How far are you going to lean into the engine compartment? If you can't run a fitting off the valve cover that can't be seen, can you run it out of the pcv system and blantently route it incorrectly? To me a fitting well hidden behind the valvecover would appear more stock than a pcv line blantently routed around the motor? No?

As far as the leaf springs go. I agree that fiberglass and carbon leaf springs should not be legal. But steel mono's that if no one knew they were mono's because they were painstakingly made to look like a near perfect set of new stock leaf springs should be legal. I mean, you allow aftermarket adjustable shocks as long as they are painted correct, but a perfect set of leaf springs are illegal because you know they are not.
I think this gray area should be addressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:27 pm 
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brian, a mono leaf with other progressively smaller steel leaves custom built to your liking is legal!

a single leaf or a combo of steel and plastic or rubber , glued or clamped is not!

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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:31 pm 
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Brian to answer your questions we want to start with, there is no time limit or structured method for leaning over a fender. There will always be a bit of subjectivity in the process. What we deem to be a violation will be documented and brought to the owners attention once the tech procedure is completed.

The leaf spring rule has been reworded to eliminate any grey area from the way it was written in the past. Our rule does not exclude existing racers. In our attempt to clarify things though, it has evolved to be Leaf springs must be made of the same material and be of the same construction as stock. Other than explicitly saying you can't use leaves made of anything but steel, its pretty black and white now. but let us explain it this way to you.

Example A- Mono leaf spring installed out of the box- Total point infraction- 15 points Non S/A rear Suspension plus 10 points Springs. Certification- NO.

Example B- Mono leaf spring installed with glued on strips of plastic, fiberglass etc.- Total point infraction- 10 points Springs. Certification- YES.

Example C- Mono leaf spring installed with correct steal looking dummy leafs.- Total point infraction- 0 points. Certification- YES.

The rules are a compromise of sorts. A blanket, "must be stock appearing otherwise anything goes" is easy, but that opens things up too far (ie. alloy engine components can be substituted for iron etc).

We have done our best to not change too much, but change things that makes the class more "feasible" for the average Joe and grounded to the original intent of Factory Appearing MuscleCar Racing. On top of it we have made a commitment to our racers to police and enforce our rules, because without enforcement, they are no longer rules but suggestions.

One other very key bit of info that needs to be stressed is that even though we are trying to do our best to identify violations, we also allow a certain amount of deviation even while achieving full certification. This is supposed to be fun after all. As you noticed, despite a few issues we identified with Lane's car, it still achieved certification. It is up to you to "choose" to correct these items or live with the deduction. Remember these rules are in place for the next three seasons, 2010-11 & 12.

In regards to leaf springs. If you have your heart set on running a fabricated composite stock appearing leaf pack then do it. I'd suggest you make it legit looking as possible and live with the 10 pt hit. You have 9 more to go and still be a certified ride.

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 Post subject: Re: Lane Carey's 1971 Mach 1 SuperCar Certification
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:28 pm 
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I can accept that. I still think it's strange how certain things in the suspension are okay as factory appearing, and others have to be exact. There is no more advantage to a monoleaf spring than what is gained by a set of good shocks.

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