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 Post subject: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:26 am
Posts: 6803
Location: Bristol CT
I have been part of conversations about how can we make it easier for racers to run one year only combos (1966 Cylinder Heads for a Big Block Chevy, 1967 Cylinder Heads for a Big Block Chrysler, 1966 Cylinder Heads for a Oldsmobile, Pontiacs. ETC)' allowing the use of a replacement head that has no performance gain over the original part number head. Examples like making a 906 Chrysler Head (used on every single Chrysler built from 1968 to 1970) OK to use on any year Chrysler mid or big block build. OR, allowing a certain Chevrolet head to be used on any year build and the same for Ford, Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac ETC. Big Block and Small Block. Remember this is a discussion, give us your thoughts.

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SUPERCAR LEGAL

66 Belvedere I HP2 Hemi Auto 11.13 @ 124MPH 1.68 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner 440+6 Auto 11.21 @ 124MPH 1.72 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner Hemi Auto 12.39 @ 113MPH 1.90 60' S/A

71 GTX 440+6 Auto 11.35 @ 123MPH 1.79 60' S/A

71 RoadRunner 440+6 4Spd 13.61 @ 101MPH 1.99 60' P/S

72 Demon GSS 340 S/A 11.81 @ 118MPH 1.91 60' S/A


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:51 pm
Posts: 435
Location: Middletown, CT
I think we need to look at this topic from a cost to the racer vs. a performance gain.

For example, several tests have been done on Chrysler Big Block Heads showing that there is little difference between the 906 & later production heads and the 906 heads cost more than later heads. If the later heads do not offer significant HP gains and look correct, why mandate that a racer with a '68 - '70 MOPAR must have the 906 head to be certified.

I think that a '67 Chrysler 440 head is a different story since it is a closed vs. open chamber head and these types of differences, which also apply to certain years of big block Chevy heads due make a difference. Perhaps the way to look at it is that if the racer who has a one year only combination is using a less desireable combination, it should be allowed. I.E., a racer with a '67 GTX running a 440 with open chamber heads should be allowed but a racer whith a '68 GTX running a 440 should not be allowed to run '67 closed chamber heads.

The one potential problem is where due you draw the line? Do you allow '69 big block Chrysler intake manifolds to be run on a '68 MOPAR since the casting is essentially the same except for the part number?

Just my 2 cents.

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Bill Corcoran Jr
'68 Plymouth Sport Fury 383 unrestored survivor with 90k, 15.82 @ 86 MPH
'68 Plymouth Sport Fury 440 ;), 13.45 @ 97.23 & hoping for 12's
'68 Plymouth Fury II 4 door sedan 383 under construction
'71 Plymouth Fury wagon 383 unrestored survivor
'94 Monaco Dynasty Diesel Pusher Motorhome/Money Pit/Part-time tow vehicle


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:26 am
Posts: 6803
Location: Bristol CT
Bill C wrote:
I think we need to look at this topic from a cost to the racer vs. a performance gain.

For example, several tests have been done on Chrysler Big Block Heads showing that there is little difference between the 906 & later production heads and the 906 heads cost more than later heads. If the later heads do not offer significant HP gains and look correct, why mandate that a racer with a '68 - '70 MOPAR must have the 906 head to be certified.


Your right Bill :aok . Using a 906 Chrysler head is an example I am familiar with and a head that is very available for little to no cost for virgin castings. Example; If a racers was building a 1967 GTX 440 and did not have a set of correct 915 heads, and our rules allowed the racer to use a 906 or later head that had no performance gain in virgin form, that would put him on track quicker. Agreed?

Another example, one of our racers is building a Max Wedge. He had to purchased 3 sets of correct Max Wedge heads till he found a set he was able to work with. If SuperCars allowed him to run a 906 on the Max Wedge, that would of help him complete his new build quicker and also the cost of virgin Max Heads are way more than a 906 or later head.

Another example, one of our racers has a 1966 Chevelle 396. 1966 396 heads are a one year only casting number (like 1967 440 heads 915), he has had issues finding a set that will last. If we had a standard factory replacement head we could offer him to use, he would be on track as well.

Another example, 340 X heads and J heads in virgin form have no real performance advantage. Once you port either head they perform the same. Why not allow either head to be used on a 1971 Duster 340?

Bill C wrote:
The one potential problem is where due you draw the line? Do you allow '69 big block Chrysler intake manifolds to be run on a '68 MOPAR since the casting is essentially the same except for the part number?


Intakes are not an issue, Cylinder heads are.

My point is, we are all in the same boat here. All three marques (GM , Ford & Chrysler) are having issues finding good virgin casting that can be used.

_________________
SUPERCAR LEGAL

66 Belvedere I HP2 Hemi Auto 11.13 @ 124MPH 1.68 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner 440+6 Auto 11.21 @ 124MPH 1.72 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner Hemi Auto 12.39 @ 113MPH 1.90 60' S/A

71 GTX 440+6 Auto 11.35 @ 123MPH 1.79 60' S/A

71 RoadRunner 440+6 4Spd 13.61 @ 101MPH 1.99 60' P/S

72 Demon GSS 340 S/A 11.81 @ 118MPH 1.91 60' S/A


Last edited by RalphsRapidTransit on Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:12 pm
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Location: North Salem NY
I agree, manifolds need to stay vintage!

heads are subject to great stress, and pressure, and we need a good conversation about this!

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69 Nova SS 396 L89
10.74 130.34


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:17 pm 
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Location: Ansonia, CT
My concern is how is an equivalent head determined? Do you look at stock specs? Modified potential?

If one head cracks after being ported within an inch of its life and a different casting can take the same work without problems, shouldn't the original casting not be ported as much?

Requiring the right casting is easy.

Still I see how this can pose a problem especially with the more recreational racer and feel that the rules in the class should continue to be more stringent as the ET's drop. Perhaps equivalent cylinder heads can be allowed to a certain ET level.


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:51 pm
Posts: 435
Location: Middletown, CT
Chris brings up some good points and rules, and perhaps certification, could be looked at based on ET.

It would be really great if some of the Ford and GM racers would provide some additional input on this topic.

I am a newcomer who would like to become active in this series next year and I have a couple of slower cars that may make some appearances next year if I can get a lot of work done on them over the winter. My long-term goal is to put a "healthy" big block into a '68 Plymouth Sport Fury that I own that is currently powered by a 318. The "healthy" engine is a long-term goal as this economy has placed me in a situation where my only employment is essentially a part-time independent contractor type of job, resulting in my budget being tighter than it has been in the past.

Short-term, I would like to put a 383 that I already have into the '68 Sport Fury and come racing in this series. An obstacle to my doing that is that the 383 that I already have, that does not need any major work, has '71 casting heads. The MOPAR magazine "experts" have tested the various Chrysler big block heads multiple times and have opined based on testing stock '68-'78 Chrysler big block heads is that they all flow similarly and therefore the '71 heads that I have offer no benefit over the '68 - '70 Chrysler "906" heads that I do not have a set of, but that the rules as currently written, would require me to obtain and install to be legal in this racing series.

If the rules were adjusted, it would benefit existing racers and potential racers like myself who are trying to do this on a budget and run some of the events.

As Ralph also points out, there are some expensive one year only heads for both Chrysler and Chevy racers and my recollection is that Ford racers have similar issues. I look forward to reading what others have to say on this topic.

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Bill Corcoran Jr
'68 Plymouth Sport Fury 383 unrestored survivor with 90k, 15.82 @ 86 MPH
'68 Plymouth Sport Fury 440 ;), 13.45 @ 97.23 & hoping for 12's
'68 Plymouth Fury II 4 door sedan 383 under construction
'71 Plymouth Fury wagon 383 unrestored survivor
'94 Monaco Dynasty Diesel Pusher Motorhome/Money Pit/Part-time tow vehicle


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:26 am
Posts: 6803
Location: Bristol CT
Bill C wrote:
An obstacle to my doing that is that the 383 that I already have, that does not need any major work, has '71 casting heads. The MOPAR magazine "experts" have tested the various Chrysler big block heads multiple times and have opined based on testing stock '68-'78 Chrysler big block heads is that they all flow similarly and therefore the '71 heads that I have offer no benefit over the '68 - '70 Chrysler "906" heads that I do not have a set of, but that the rules as currently written, would require me to obtain and install to be legal in this racing series.



Just to clearify the rules as they are written at this moment. You can run any factory head up till you hit 11.70 E/T. The only issue you would have is, you will not be elligible to pass certification if you chose to have your car Certifeid.

_________________
SUPERCAR LEGAL

66 Belvedere I HP2 Hemi Auto 11.13 @ 124MPH 1.68 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner 440+6 Auto 11.21 @ 124MPH 1.72 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner Hemi Auto 12.39 @ 113MPH 1.90 60' S/A

71 GTX 440+6 Auto 11.35 @ 123MPH 1.79 60' S/A

71 RoadRunner 440+6 4Spd 13.61 @ 101MPH 1.99 60' P/S

72 Demon GSS 340 S/A 11.81 @ 118MPH 1.91 60' S/A


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:54 am
Posts: 315
The big issue with the GM Rectangular Big Block Heads is availability. 69/70 were primarily a closed chamber design. The actual intake and exhaust volume difference between an open and closed chamber head is very little. When I say open and closed chamber it really is the design , the cc of the chamber isn't very different.

99% of bbc pistons that are sold are the open chamber design. To build a L72 427 (closed chamber) you don't have too many choices for pistons and on top of that they are rarely in stock. This means custom pistons.

The two pistons are Not interchangeable.

The performance gain on a set of ported heads is relatively small from on to another.

To build a closed chamber motor using the CORRECT parts vs an open chamber equivalent the cost is 2 to 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:21 pm
Posts: 242
i just spent 4k after porting seats valve job etc on a set of 074 aluminum heads for my zl1.They sat here for almost 2 years. i pulled springs off last weekend only to find several cracks in bowl areas that were not there when springs installed 5 months ago. Glad i did not put together the pump gas motor as i had hoped. id have bunch more of broken junk than the heads! If i had choice to run the 077 heads which were a later chevy replacement head with only slight improvements in ports( i had done to my 074s which is stock on 077s- d shaped exhaust ports stock) but MUCH better aluminum, i am sure i wouldnt be in this position now!
Really sucks. This may possibly put me out of it. I cant afford another set of heads and finsh car...
So you know what my stand is now! 2 weeks ago i would of said no. however i have almost 2x money invested in an inferior casting. I could of fueled my tow vehicle and bought race gas for entire season on pricing difference, had heads that looked prettier on outside, flowed/performed the same, plus had a little confidence that i wasnt going to scatter my 15k short block all over the earth.
Ryan


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:26 am
Posts: 6803
Location: Bristol CT
:agree we need to find out what heads would have little to no performance advantage. and put them in place to use as an alternative. This is not going to be easy but we need to have the racers best interest in mind. I don't think we can do this alone, we need the help of all the experts from each marque.... We need everyone to think this over and help figure out a solution that benefits everyone.

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SUPERCAR LEGAL

66 Belvedere I HP2 Hemi Auto 11.13 @ 124MPH 1.68 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner 440+6 Auto 11.21 @ 124MPH 1.72 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner Hemi Auto 12.39 @ 113MPH 1.90 60' S/A

71 GTX 440+6 Auto 11.35 @ 123MPH 1.79 60' S/A

71 RoadRunner 440+6 4Spd 13.61 @ 101MPH 1.99 60' P/S

72 Demon GSS 340 S/A 11.81 @ 118MPH 1.91 60' S/A


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Maybe this is a jinx, as we need 1 #840 head. 1969 427 L72. One head is fine and work is underway, the other head has had a tiny repair and would work great as is, but being on the other side of the 4000dollar door, SORRY RYAN :P , it is not worth investing the time and money in it.

Im not sure how many heads need to be purchased to find a decent one, but we don't have a choice.

If a large sum of money and time is being spent on a set of heads they would be equal to any other GM production RECT port head.

It is just a number under the valve cover.


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Sparkill, NY
I have spent count less amounts of time and money trying to make steel 906 heads flow less then 300! And they usually last about 4 races before a crack developes.

Correct me if I am wrong but can't that happen with a steel chevy head fairly easy?

Not stirring the pot but it seems to me the guys that are looking for a cheeper way out already have the advantage?

You guys do have the option of building a MOPAR :shrug


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:35 pm 
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Location: Bristol CT
Ed Cook wrote:
I have spent count less amounts of time and money trying to make steel 906 heads flow less then 300! And they usually last about 4 races before a crack developes.

Correct me if I am wrong but can't that happen with a steel chevy head fairly easy?

Not stirring the pot but it seems to me the guys that are looking for a cheeper way out already have the advantage?

You guys do have the option of building a MOPAR :shrug


Ed I don't know the complete story on your hunt for heads on the 1963. Wasn't that a challenge?

_________________
SUPERCAR LEGAL

66 Belvedere I HP2 Hemi Auto 11.13 @ 124MPH 1.68 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner 440+6 Auto 11.21 @ 124MPH 1.72 60' S/A

70 RoadRunner Hemi Auto 12.39 @ 113MPH 1.90 60' S/A

71 GTX 440+6 Auto 11.35 @ 123MPH 1.79 60' S/A

71 RoadRunner 440+6 4Spd 13.61 @ 101MPH 1.99 60' P/S

72 Demon GSS 340 S/A 11.81 @ 118MPH 1.91 60' S/A


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:53 pm 
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Even if it was painted chevy orange I don't think it would pass in a camaro! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Cylinder Heads.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Posts: 242
What about NHRA approved stock/superstock eliminator legal replacement heads? I know there are olds, pontiac and big block chevys available. They supposedly have NO performance advantages, only less expensive and better materials. Maybe ther mopars on that list?
Maybe require the user to make appear origianl on outside? for a bbc with aluminum heads remove the bowties from later heads and either leave off or add the winters stamps? i know this can be done.
far as i can tell those mopar farm irrigation motor heads should be easy to find. reichle farms in south windsor ct had tons of those old hemi turds in there fields pumping water on corn crop....i moved em enough times!
That 906 head though thats a 440 cast iron head? was that a 1 year only?
I am really staring to second guess my motives. spending all this money to race my car for bragging rights and at same time jeopardize breaking my motor over a set of 40 year old crap ass castings that i dont want in my basement never mind making 750 hp at 7000 rpm!! My aluminum block is no longer made and worth a ton at this point...if i break a head and break this block i am done for good. I usually build my stuff WAY overkill so as to not suffer any catastophic failures(over 500 9 second passes nothing more than a few broken vave springs!) so for me to risk breaking the bank for a crappy set of heads(all the 074s are crap not just mine).
anyway i sent my $4000 junk heads out friday to try and fix. im still going to be nervous even if there "fixed".Im not exactly going to take it easy on this thing. I would be less nervous with a 74-90 vintage 077 casting. slightly better material same port setup, they were chevy warranty relacemnet head for all the 074s that broke. never installed in a car only over counter. Looks identical on outside etc...i can still get abrand new bare set for less than 2k
Thats my rant
See you next year unless i say the heck with it put real heads and headers on it and go way 9s ...
or maybe go stock eliminator racing.
Ryan


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